Thoughts on Round 3

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Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Nearco on Fri Mar 18, 2011 11:50 pm

So, considering everyone seems to be happy with games nowadays, I'm going to expand this topic a tad. What were the flaws of the Auction game? And what did we do well?
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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Xanatos on Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:08 am

great game, great way to eradicate inactives. i dont have a crititicism coz it was fun and hard to plan for
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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Nearco on Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:49 am

Of course it was hard to plan for. I made it. The same guy who brought you the taxpayer game Very Happy.

Although there were two simple plans:
1) Find the 5 least likely person to receive bids. Bid 20M on each of them. Even if you were wrong, you were still pretty safe, few people bid that high.
2) Bid 5k on everyone. You were highly likely to get a fair few bids, since some people were under the radar and wouldn't get any bids. In the game results given, it got you 6 bids.
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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Dysania on Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:24 pm

k, here's my thoughts. I promised nearco I'd say what I was thinking. But it's loooong.


- First impression..... Didn't think it was the best game to start with. First impressions were just "oh, another second-guess everybody round?" ...bearing in mind this was coming off the back of pistol duel, that's basically what it came over like.
+ This said... once I got my head round the rules and the intricacies, it suddenly seemed much cleverer. A sense of oneupmanship seemed to appear concerning how you secure votes without paying too much. It was a nice paradigm.
- I liked the original layout of top 33% qualify.... but then it dropped downward when people became inactive. The top.... 45% ish? Got through... and it didn't seem as scary all of a sudden; if anything that was a huge clue that all we had to do was score 5 points to secure a place. With 33%, it could have been 6, or higher. Maybe.
- The minimum posting requirement didn't really do much one way or another.
o Could dropouts have happened because of lack of forewarning? The auction thread went up and was all "lol jsyk the game begins tomorrow kthxbye", and I was all: "o____o but ive got essays due on thursday, fffff", and didnt properly read the rules for 2 days. Just a thought.
+ I liked the way how the game supported solo flyers. Sure, people could work with allies and possibly arrange something, but in 9/10ths of strategies, the best tactic in that case was (seemingly) to defect.
+ Winning the round wasnt the same as winning yen. If anything, they were almost opposites.
- Like I say, they were almost opposites. There were some people who profited and won, and some people who lost both yen and the game, but they were a minority... both before and after the edit. Could this have been more balanced? It sorta felt like we had to choose...
- I can't speak for anybody else, but I didn't get much in the way of behind-the-scenes talking. I like the Liar Game to be about lying, not guessing or arithmetic.
o Ironically, I think having a few people zero the game kinda was beneficial. It made things less tiebreaky because....
- If the game had become dependent on tiebreaks, it would have essentially simmereed down to a popularity contest for those points/positions. Luckily, this was avoided on the whole, I think.
+ Excellent use of secrecy. Even if someone told you they were gonna bid 50M to you, you'd never have a way to prove it.
+ Yennage distributed itself well. Lots of people averaged out at about 10/11M sales. But some gained more, others gained less. And to profit you basically had to spend four times what you though you'd earn following downward adjustments. That was clever.
o I wonder if this game leant itself to contract use....?
+ Nice timekeeping with the checkpoints, and the deadline of submissions was lenient yet fair.


I need to be in bed now, but I promised I'd empty my head and... yeah. Did that fo sho XD

I think too much.
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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Kiria on Sun Mar 27, 2011 2:03 am

My thoughts on this game:

Couldn't the results have included a bit more?
I'm still sitting here thinking, what happened? because when I calculate my results, I should not have ended up with the numbers
that I did. Maybe I'm forgetting a rule or two somewhere, but my results just don't make much sense.
Also, what happened to the people who sent in bids over 100 mil last time? Did the dealers read wrong last time? Were they allowed to change their bids? I know there was something about Nemesissy including a line that previously went unnoticed, but the first time around, there were more people who ended up not winning any points. I can't say for sure how many, since I forgot to copy/paste the original post.
I agree with what Dys said about the lack of any real lying or trickery required for this game.
I didn't see the point of posting bids either. There was one round... why ask players to post five times?
The main problem I had with this game was sitting around afterward and wonder exactly how such results are possible.
Maybe I'm just overlooking something; I don't know.
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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Nearco on Sun Mar 27, 2011 5:45 am

Dys:

To be honest, I originally told Lero to cut the number of winners down when people started dropping out, but then complaints from a previous round kicked in. We changed stuff and didn't give warning back in the taxpayer game, and people complained, so we learnt that we should keep our word more often. Now, we had said 7 people were going to be eliminated. Changing it would have been bad. So, Lero convinced me to keep it at 7 (although I still wasn't comfortable with it, for other reasons). Thanks for proving him wrong, now I have precedence for the next time. Very Happy (I think I still see the game as a player in some ways, and think of it like that when I deal.)

The posting requirement probably could have been cut down to just one (at the 5-day mark), but we needed it there for inactive hunts.

Winning points = losing yen was bypassable, by aiming for the lowest of the top 7. This was probably me being cleverer than I needed to be for it...

Future games will be more lying-based, but as you said, your first impressions involved a lot more second-guessing than that. I was personally expecting more moves like the one that Masq posted. Lero and I spent a fair bit of time wondering about masq's objectives of that post. At minimum, it would jack up his earnings to 25 million x 4, if they all kept their word.

We wanted a bit more contract-use, so we made cheaper contracts. This was mostly due to a flaw in the fix to a previous flaw: Since R2 was so crap that I didn't even bother making one of these threads for it, we had more minigames which just threw money at you guys. Then we realized we had a lot of extra money floating around, and were hoping that we could drain it on contracts.

I can't talk for Lero, but I was rather lenient on the times in which people got stuff in.

Kiria:
I didn't post who got what just yet, because I wanted to see if anyone had any complaints first. If you think I screwed up, PM me with it, and I'll fix it.

I'm pretty sure it was just Neme who I screwed up, so nothing major should have changed on his account. Sunako was still out (She sent in more, and there was no way I could have screwed it up, it wasn't a "I bid X on everyone" kinda thing, which was what Neme did)
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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Nemesissy on Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:04 am

Is it just me or did everybody seem to forget a crucial half of the game, which is getting 4 or more people to bid large amounts of money on you? As I understood the game, getting points was relatively easy, and getting yen even more so, but getting both was the challenge. Masq aimed for this very openly with his 'wacky alliance', but just that isn't really enough, you need to make people think of you as someone not too many people would bid on.

I also tried redirecting the flow of money a little with my final post (the all caps one), but I'm not sure how many were even reading those inactive-hunting bids. Lots of ways to influence this game to your advantage if you're a little creative and cover all possible methods.


Last edited by Nemesissy on Sun Mar 27, 2011 7:04 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : missing '?')
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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Masquerade on Sun Mar 27, 2011 3:58 pm

The WackyShop Alliance was your ticket to greatness.... guess you guys just weren't WACKY enough to see the end results. Mind you, we didn't even go through with the 25M hijinks. Though we would've if there was a stronger counter-reaction, which is what I was banking on. But hey, spending less was just as good with me.

For me, this was a game of Kansas City Shuffle... make everyone look to the left while you go to the right. If everyone is busy trying to one-up bids for my point to take down the WackyShop alliance, I'll make a ton of money while I spend less on everyone else (I was off in my calculations by 1M. Oh well.) Plus, it helped to create an atmosphere where bumping the necessary bid to earn a point go higher and higher... I started with 5M each for my fake bids, and Sol (on his own) bumped it to 10M. I'm not sure his intentions were to create higher stakes, but they were certainly in line with mine. I'll admit bumping it to 25M was obviously ridiculous, but I didn't really care.

Ultimately, this game should've been about creating a competitive atmosphere (which is what I think the public bids were for: sending shockwaves)... otherwise you'd spend more than necessary while earning incredibly little. Eensy bids like 1M became unnoticed thanks to this: if you wanted to win points, you HAD to spend at least 10M (though there were exceptions). Make players spend more to gain less... which gives you more spread of the loot to take. I give credit to Sol for doing this more than I did. But the minimum could've been bumped even higher if other people made claims that they would. There was a lot of untapped potential in the one-upping department, but everyone wanted to play the safety game instead of making outrageous claims (when mind you, you never HAD to go through with what you said you would).

And FYI, it turns out everyone in the WackyShop got through (or, in one case, would've). And I had the third-highest 4th bid. WACKY! jocolor
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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Dysania on Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:17 pm

Nearco wrote:Dys:

To be honest, I originally told Lero to cut the number of winners down when people started dropping out, but then complaints from a previous round kicked in. We changed stuff and didn't give warning back in the taxpayer game, and people complained, so we learnt that we should keep our word more often. Now, we had said 7 people were going to be eliminated. Changing it would have been bad.


Ahhhh, yes. I didn't think about it like that. In that case, Leroy had a very valid point, and keeping it as such was justified very well. Smile I think you guys might have gotten away with reducing it after all- it wasn't unforshadowed this time around. But as you did keep it as it was, there's no point in complaining. It just meant the game wasn't as scrappy as it could've been. Which is good or bad depending on perspective, right? Wink


Last edited by Dysania on Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Nearco on Sun Mar 27, 2011 6:20 pm

Well, to be fair, I didn't see the results partially coz I didn't know who signed up. We had it somewhere between "good intentions" of getting all the people through and "bad intentions" of getting 4 random schmucks to each give you 25 mill while you went and bid on other people.

What? That's what Nemesissy was just talking about. Get 4 people to bid high on you, and you earn bucketloads.
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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Lespar on Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:39 am

In general, liar game has been focused on games that reward teamwork, but reward betrayal even more. The better games have allowed alliances to form and rewarded players substantially to switch between alliances.

The major problem I had with this game is that the incentive to form an alliance wasn't quite as large as in other games. Furthermore, formed alliances were hard to detect and there wasn't really an incentive to switch between any alliances formed.
On top of that, working alone would also get you pretty far (as shown by Xanatos) with numerous simple strategies at your disposal (5M on everyone or 12M on 8 people) would've worked pretty well.

For me, the game became a toss up between losing yen and getting into the next round.

It did pretty well for eliminating inactives though. (nooooo maica Sad )

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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Nearco on Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:26 pm

While the above is true, we had found that noone ever really betrays. When the option to betray was presented and someone thought they had been betrayed (chibi), she quit the game. So, currently, games are a case of "largest alliance wins", since betrayal doesn't really happen.

This forces us into two types of games: Games where an alliance is necessary, but size is unimportant (e.g. Downsizing game) and games where an alliance is merely a source of information and the like.

Nemesissy got the idea on this game right: Winning and making money was possible, you just needed to figure out how to win with small bids, and get lots of people to bid high for you. (Interestingly enough, his insurance plans stopped him from winning with mostly small bids, but he still profitted). While he didn't win that big, he did profit and move on to round 4. This was the harder part of the game, and we were hoping to see more people do it. In the meantime, Dysania and Xanatos (the others in the top 3) both have debts.

Only 2 players won the game and made money, and these two players are the ones people should watch out for. While Dys and Xan won a large amount of points, they were unable to make money and win.

What this game rewarded was out-of-the-box thinking. As Nemesissy showed, you could win with lots of small bids, which very few people considered. A lot of people dismissed the idea with "anything less than 10 mill isn't worth it". Furthermore, as pointed out earlier, you needed to make people bid high on you. This is a lot easier than it sounds, if you start being a lot more public. Getting lots of people to put money on you means you can filter out the smaller bids, leaving lots of money to be made on the larger bids. And since people would normally just put money on the first bunch of people that came to their minds, then you being public means you come to mind a lot faster.
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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

Post  Solarium King on Thu Mar 31, 2011 10:45 pm

I didn't understand the lying mechanic behind the scenes, mainly because you could switch how much you bet as you played. For me, I just didn't care about what anyone bet for the time I was able to be around, because most of that was BS anyways. But yeah, the lying mechanic could have been kicked out (unless you actually had a purpose for it?).

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Re: Thoughts on Round 3

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