Kaiji - Restricted Rock Paper Scissors

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Kaiji - Restricted Rock Paper Scissors

Post  Nearco on Fri Mar 18, 2011 5:54 am

So, Leronira has talked me into watching Kaiji, saying it was better than Liar Game. Due to the nature of megavideo, I can only watch a limited amount over a given time, so I'm currently nearing the end of RRPS. But I have come to a conclusion anyway. To read the rest of this post, go to http://www.rot13.com and translate it there.

Orsber V jngpurq vg, Yreb jnf gryyvat zr gung bar bs gur fryyvat cbvagf jnf gung Xnvwv qbrfa'g nyjnlf jva, juvpu zrnaf jr qba'g xabj jurgure Xnvwv'f cynaf jvyy npghnyyl fhpprrq. Npghny fhcfrafr naq nyy gung. Gurer'f n fvzcyr ernfba sbe guvf ynpx bs jvaavat ba Xnvwv'f cneg. Xnvwv'f cynaf ner fghcvq, naq ur bsgra cnffrf hc pregnva-jva cynaf.

1) Juvyr Nxvlnzn zvtug abg unir qbar guvf, Lbxbln jbhyq unir qrsvavgryl orgenlrq orsber orvat orgenlrq. Gung jnf gur bcgvzny cbvag sbe orgenlny, orfg V pna gryy. Abj, ernyvmvat gung, Nxvlnzn pbhyq unir gnxra vg bar fgrc shegure. Gurer ner gjb pnfrf, lbhe "cnegare" jvyy orgenl lbh, be ur jba'g. Gur orfg zbir jvgu gung va zvaq vf gb cynl fpvffbef jura lbh jrer fhccbfrq gb cynl ebpx. Vs lbhe cnegare jnf cynaavat gb orgenl lbh, lbh jva. Vs lbhe cnegare jnfa'g tbaan orgenl lbh, lbh pna fnl "Qnza, V fperjrq hc, rnfvyl svkrq, whfg cynl fpvffbef guvf gvzr, V'yy cynl ebpx, gnxr zl fgne onpx, naq jr ner nyy tbbq." Juvpu Xnvwv sryy sbe naljnl.

2) Gur "Onynapr" guvat. Fb, Xnvwv gbbx nqinagntr bs gur snpg gung guvf thl jnf sbphfrq ba onynapr, naq nf n erfhyg, jba gur svefg tnzr, ybfg gur frpbaq, gura jba gur erznvavat 2. Yrg'f gnxr na nygreangr cbffvovyvgl. Ur svaqf 4 crbcyr jub svg gung ovyy. Guvf trgf uvz 4 fgnef hfvat gubfr 4 pneqf. Uvf npghny zrgubq tbg uvz... 2 fgnef. Xvaq bs n evc. Nqzvggrqyl, guvf jbhyq or zber gvzr-pbafhzvat. Ohg gurer ner bgure jnlf gb svaq jung pneqf crbcyr jvyy cynl arkg.

3) Nsgre ohlvat bhg nyy gur ebpxf, Xnvwv znqr gur ernyvmngvba gung fbzrbar ryfr jnf ohlvat bhg nyy gur cncref, zrnavat gurer jnf na nohaqnapr bs fpvffbef ylvat nebhaq. Naq Xnvwv naq sevraqf unir n ynetr ahzore bs ebpxf sybngvat nebhaq. Gura, gur 3 thlf jub obhtug bhg nyy gur cncref erirny gurzfryirf... Zrnavat gung rirelbar ryfr va gur ebbz unf n ynetre ahzore bs fpvffbef guna gurl qb cncre naq ebpx... Fb, vs Xnvwv cynlf fbzr enaqbz fpuzhpx, ur trgf n fgne. Penml, V xabj.

5) Jura Xnvwv jnf bssrerq gur punapr gb orgenl uvf nyyvrf, ur pbhyq unir nfxrq sbe zber fgnef. Rnpu pneq jnf jbegu 1 fgne gb orgenlre/ercrngre thl jub'f anzr pheeragyl rfpncrf zr. Ur pbhyq unir rnfvyl orra pbaivaprq gb ohl 6 pneqf sbe 3 fgnef, juvpu chgf uvz ng 9 fgnef nzbatfg uvf 3 thlf.

5) Crbcyr qba'g jnag gb cynl Xnvwv orpnhfr gurl ner nsenvq ur jvyy jva orpnhfr ur'f orra genpxvat gurz. Fb, ur fgnaqf hc naq fnlf "BX, rirelbar. V pna'g xabj jung lbh nyy unir. Guvf vf n punyyratr gb nal bs lbh. Guvf fgnaqfgvyy vf fghcvq, naq nyy V'z ybbxvat sbe vf na bccbarag."

6) Fb, nsgre gurl'ir obhtug bhg nyy gur ebpxf naq cncref, fbzrbar fnlf "url, yrg'f fuhssyr nyy gur pneqf hc." Vs Xnvwv ubyqf nyy gur ebpxf naq cncref, naq fraqf gur bgure thlf va jvgu fpvffbef, gura gung zrnaf ur unf gur fnzr cbfvgvba ur unq orsber. Nygreangviryl, ur pbhyq uvqr gur ebpxf naq cncref naq nyy guerr pbhyq wbva va, ohg gung zvtug pbhag nf qvfcbfvat gurz.

Gung'f jurer V'z hc gb. Fb, va fubeg, gurer ner ybgf bs cbvagf jurer Xnvwv pbhyq unir jba, ohg qvqa'g, abg sbe nal zbeny ernfba, ohg orpnhfr bs furre fghcvqvgl.

Ohg, qba'g jbeel. Gurer'f zber. Ercrngre/orgenlre qhqr unq na bccheghavgl nf jryy. Nffhzr ur unf n ebpx, n cncre naq n fpvffbef. Ur'f nyernql qrzbafgengrq ur pna srvag cynlvat bar pneq, jura va ernyvgl ur vf cynlvat n qvssrerag bar. Fb, ur tbrf hc gb bar bs gur thlf fvggvat bhg naq fnlf "Ybbx, V'ir tbg n ebpx naq n fpvffbef, ohg V pna'g svaq nalbar gb trg evq bs gurz guebhtu. V'yy tvir lbh n fgne vs lbh uryc zr trg evq bs gurfr ynfg pneqf. V'yy tvir lbh gur ebpx, jr cynl, lbh cynl gur ebpx, V cynl gur fpvffbef, lbh jva." Gura, ur fjvgpurf gur fpvffbef sbe gur cncre naq jvaf. Obahf fgne.

So, I'm guessing that each of these suggested plans has a flaw that I'm missing. Can someone fill me in, or am I just smarter than Fukumoto?
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Re: Kaiji - Restricted Rock Paper Scissors

Post  Kie on Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:27 pm

As far as Megavideo, you can reset your modem/router to get all of your time back if you would like to continue watching at that instant (I guess you can't do this if you aren't at home, if your IP address is static, or if messing with your setup would be too troublesome.)

Back to Kaiji:

Kaiji has always been a bit stupid and so have the characters around him. So, I would not put him on the level of Akiyama and Yokoya. He sometimes has it in him to get through situations while strained with immense pressure, however I have to say he is only a bit above average in the mental department. He usually has to cry or appear shocked for 10 minutes before he can figure things out anyway.

I still like Kaiji though. I usually prepare myself for "How will Kaiji get out of this one?" in contrast to Akiyama's "How will he dominate this time?" As with the Liar Game, the background characters are not reliable for too long. Yes, there were many ways that Kaiji could have won from the start, but if he did that I do not think he would be "Kaiji, the screw up with some promise." He has to mess up first.

If you are watching the anime, use this place to avoid waiting: http://www.animefuel.com/category/g/gyakkyou-burai-kaiji (scroll down that page, they're there)


Last edited by Kie on Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Kaiji - Restricted Rock Paper Scissors

Post  Leronira on Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:41 pm

Why did you feel the need to translate all of that into garblespeak? >>;;

Anyway, yeah, Kaiji isn't exactly the master of manipulation and psychological warfare that you're trying to make him be. He rushes into things, and when they turn out to stab him in the back, he cries. Once he's had his cry, he fights back and does everything he can to get back to where he started. If Kaiji ever stopped being a useless bum, the series would be over then and there. But it seems more fitting to me that he'd end up actually dying while learning from his mistakes, and by extension passing them onto us. If you want to see a psychological mastermind, go watch Akagi. (Watch, not read... Fukumoto was still getting a hang of the "suspense" thing when he was writing the first 3 or so arcs)

In any case,

1) While Akiyama might not have done this, Yokoya would have definitely betrayed before being betrayed. That was the optimal point for betrayal, best I can tell. Now, realizing that, Akiyama could have taken it one step further. There are two cases, your "partner" will betray you, or he won't. The best move with that in mind is to play scissors when you were supposed to play rock. If your partner was planning to betray you, you win. If your partner wasn't gonna betray you, you can say "Damn, I screwed up, easily fixed, just play scissors this time, I'll play rock, take my star back, and we are all good." Which Kaiji fell for anyway.

Yes, it was stupid. Yes, in hindsight, Kaiji could have done it better. In fact, that's probably why Kaiji was beating himself up and crying later. But that's what puts Kaiji apart from Funai. Kaiji genuinely sees the world as full of good people who he can trust, as evidenced by when he co-signed with Furuhata and got betrayed, leading to this whole series. Funai sees everyone as pawns to help him get higher in the world, and will stop at nothing to get them. If Kaiji had done that, he would be fun to watch, but he would not be the same character. I find myself rooting for Akagi's opponents at times because Akagi sometimes slips into the villainous roles. You just can't do that with Kaiji. You want him to win because he's such a loveable character, and you feel like you're right there with him. If that's not the case, I'm going to question your ability to feel compassion.

2) The "Balance" thing. So, Kaiji took advantage of the fact that this guy was focused on balance, and as a result, won the first game, lost the second, then won the remaining 2. Let's take an alternate possibility. He finds 4 people who fit that bill. This gets him 4 stars using those 4 cards. His actual method got him... 2 stars. Kind of a rip. Admittedly, this would be more time-consuming. But there are other ways to find what cards people will play next.

It was already hard to believe that there was anyone who would fit the requirement of having played Rock, then Scissors. It would have taken ages to find other opponents who also fit those requirements, and he needed not just 3 but 9 stars (remember, he's not in this for just himself), so even if he found 4 by the end of the game, that would only be enough for himself. It was good to get him back on track, but hardly good enough to let him achieve his stated goals.

3) After buying out all the rocks, Kaiji made the realization that someone else was buying out all the papers, meaning there was an abundance of scissors lying around. And Kaiji and friends have a large number of rocks floating around. Then, the 3 guys who bought out all the papers reveal themselves... Meaning that everyone else in the room has a larger number of scissors than they do paper and rock... So, if Kaiji plays some random schmuck, he gets a star. Crazy, I know.

Not really. There was no guarantee they were telling the truth, and there could be just as many Papers and Rocks out there as Scissors.

4)

Kaiji is so awesome that it made you skip a number, I see.

5) People don't want to play Kaiji because they are afraid he will win because he's been tracking them. So, he stands up and says "OK, everyone. I can't know what you all have. This is a challenge to any of you. This standstill is stupid, and all I'm looking for is an opponent."

These guys can't know for sure what he has, or that he doesn't know what they have. It could be a trap to give him one of their stars.

6) So, after they've bought out all the rocks and papers, someone says "hey, let's shuffle all the cards up." If Kaiji holds all the rocks and papers, and sends the other guys in with scissors, then that means he has the same position he had before. Alternatively, he could hide the rocks and papers and all three could join in, but that might count as disposing them.

Who would play Kaiji once they knew he sat out of the shuffle? It's kinda obvious who's working with him. And then Funai could creep in and pwn the rest of them while their attention was on Kaiji. This way, he gets their trust.
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Re: Kaiji - Restricted Rock Paper Scissors

Post  Nearco on Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:45 pm

OK... First, I did the rot13 thing because it was heavy spoilers.

1) So... your point is that Kaiji is a naive moron? Thanks for agreeing. Next.

2) So... because he needed more stars, using 4 cards to get 2 stars is better than using 4 cards to get 4 stars. I want whatever you are on. And it didn't take that long to find him, it just took a while to confirm.

3) There weren't as many papers as there were scissors. The scissors were disappearing 2 at a time, while the papers weren't disappearing. So, it was a pretty safe bet that the scissors formed the vast majority. Playing a round would confirm that.

4) I included two 5's. No rebuttal? OK... Next

5) It's unreasonable to expect one person to track everyone else in the room.

6) They aren't playing Kaiji. They are playing one of his allies. Kaiji isn't just one person at this point, he's a team of 3. So, Kaiji sits out, holding all the rocks and the papers. Then a bunch of scissors get thrown around. His allies are in, and get some scissors as well. Then, they sneak back to Kaiji and get some rocks, and win against everyone.
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Re: Kaiji - Restricted Rock Paper Scissors

Post  Solarium King on Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:59 pm

I stopped reading it cause the art was garbage. I only watched the movie that Lero posted on Youtube, and that wasn't that boring.

I don't really get what you want from Kaiji, you want people that absolutely control each person like a pawn like in Liar Game? I mean, Lero said it was better than Liar Game, you've pointed out intelligence flaws for Kaiji, so maybe, just MAYBE, he was talking about the story of Kaiji (since the art sucks) was better than Liar Game?

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Re: Kaiji - Restricted Rock Paper Scissors

Post  Nearco on Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:43 am

Actually, it doesn't need to be full-on control. In all of my described plans, Kaiji only worked with his allies towards a common goal. Everything else was mutually beneficial for all involved, or was preparing for any actions that those players could take.
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